Battery Supply…

Forum Power supplies Battery Supply…

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    • #1668
      multiblitz
      Participant

        Hi Andrea,

         

        Can you please share some documentation how to build the 4 pole connection cable correctly ? So, which pole has which voltage and which Ground so the connection between the psu board and the main power board is correctly… on both ends ?

         

        for the three pole 9V fifo voltage connector please the same…which of the poles should be used for what (as the other end has only two poles)?

        i am in the finalizing phase…batteries are in the house…so cable building next…

         

        thx a lot

        Frank

      • #1670
        The Well Audio
        Participant

          Attached a few pictures about TWRPS-pp, TWRPS-LBS-P and TWSAFB-LT FIFO Lite connections.

          TWRPS-pp has Kelvin connection (Force and Sense), but one can install a pair of jumpers if the above connection is not necessary (as in the attached picture).

          TWRPS-LBS-P has standard positive and negative connections as in the attached picture.

          TWSAFB-LT has standard positive and negative connections as in the attached picture.

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        • #1674
          multiblitz
          Participant

            Thanks…but what about the 4pole between LBS-P and LBS-M ? can you make a drawing which pin stands for what as there are two lines of power, one high current, one continous power as i understood the manual ?

          • #1676
            The Well Audio
            Participant

              Attached a couple of pictures which explains the connections between the TWRPS-LBS-P and the TWRPS-LBS-M.

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            • #1729
              multiblitz
              Participant

                Thanks a lot…I was just wondering about the 3.3V vs 6.6V options as I am now soldering the batteries…: Are both voltages possible for the fifo / dac ? Or only 3.3V ?

              • #1730
                The Well Audio
                Participant

                  Thanks a lot…I was just wondering about the 3.3V vs 6.6V options as I am now soldering the batteries…: Are both voltages possible for the fifo / dac ? Or only 3.3V ?

                  3V3 only.
                  Max voltage for the Master clock section of the FIFO Lite and for +/-VD and +/-Vref of the DAC Lite is 5V.

                • #1895
                  multiblitz
                  Participant

                    Finally I assembled everything.

                     

                    So, first power on…only the main switch of the charging psu is on…the switch on the actual battery board is open…:

                    – three slow blinks …battery fault…means what ???
                    – when I switch the switch on the battery board on (it not a push button, but a normal toggle switch)…led starts to blink fast 9-10 times and than goes back to slow three times blinking.

                    So, before I now try to set the charging current etc…what does battery fault mean ? Is this expected behavior ? I dont have a load on the battery supply right now as I want first to see it giving me the right voltages before I connect it to anything.

                  • #1896
                    multiblitz
                    Participant

                      Correction…i forgot to out the little switches in the board to “on”…now the led is slowly going on and off…simulating my heart beat…

                       

                      When those switches have been off, all rails where zero voltage except the 13.3V rail, that had output voltage ?

                    • #1899
                      The Well Audio
                      Participant

                        Please, take a look at the user manual (pages 9-10) for the LED status indicator.

                      • #1906
                        multiblitz
                        Participant

                          I rechecked and it seems that relais are clicking, voltages are there in battery mode, but the continous voltage for the clocks when battery mode is off is gone.

                        • #1905
                          multiblitz
                          Participant

                            Thanks…sorry to bother you again, but my eyes are not that good anymore and I managed it to produce a flash again…

                            …when cutting leads on the back of the main battery board to have a short when my cutting tool cut a battery lead and made contact with a relais…

                            result: no more 12V to make the relais work and no more standby voltages for the clock…so I melted down the 12V reg I guess.

                            If there is a schematic or any advise which parts to exchange…that would be extremely helpful.

                          • #1910
                            The Well Audio
                            Participant

                              There are no regulator on the standby voltages line for the clock.

                              Please, check the voltage between pins 1 and 2 of J4 connector on the TWRPS-LBS-P.
                              You should measure around 15VDC.

                            • #1915
                              multiblitz
                              Participant

                                Yes, I got 18.8V on the one and 8.8V on the other connector…both unloaded…

                                 

                                I made the contact/flash/short in the middle of the board where I can only see relais and some diodes … so maybe something which switches between battery supply and constant supply is destroyed ? In battery mode I do have the voltage, it is only the issue when switching battery off…

                              • #1921
                                The Well Audio
                                Participant

                                  Are you sure you that the LED status indicator is blinking three times and pausing?
                                  This indicates battery fault condition, overvoltage or undervoltage.

                                  Otherwise if the LED status indicator is blinking four times and pausing indicates current overload condition (probably a short circuit).

                                  You could measure the voltage on C108 with a DMM (positive leg), you should measure around 13V.
                                  If there is 0V you could measure the voltage on the two terminals of R7 versus ground to understand if there is a shutdown condition due to current overload.
                                  You should measure around 0V on both terminals, otherwise current overload condition occur.
                                  Finally you could check R40 and R41, they are protection resistors which burn in case of persisting short circuit.

                                • #1923
                                  multiblitz
                                  Participant

                                    I am happy to do all those measurements, but just to avoid confusion:

                                    The three blinking LEDs are no longer the issue. That is solved. The reason for them to blink was that I did not put the little on-off switches soldered on the board to avoid long-term-discharging into “on” state when I powered up the first time. When putting those switches to “on” no blinking anymore.

                                     

                                    The current issue is:

                                    Everything works as intended, no LED-error codes etc. But when I power off (the battery board, not the powersupply board), there is no voltage on the clock-voltage (16V) rail anymore.

                                    My suspicion is that either the relais or its electronic responsible for switching from battery supply to regulator supply do not work anymore or something on the path of the 18V voltage from the power supply board to the 16.6V output of the battery board is broken.

                                    So, this mechanimn for having the clocks always powered on (even when batteries are switched off)is broken.

                                     

                                  • #1928
                                    The Well Audio
                                    Participant

                                      Ok, so please make the measurements I have listed above in order to understand if the 12V regulator is broken or in shutdown condition.

                                      Thank you

                                    • #1932
                                      multiblitz
                                      Participant

                                        You could measure the voltage on C108 with a DMM (positive leg), you should measure around 13V.
                                        If there is 0V you could measure the voltage on the two terminals of R7 versus ground to understand if there is a shutdown condition due to current overload.
                                        You should measure around 0V on both terminals, otherwise current overload condition occur.
                                        Finally you could check R40 and R41, they are protection resistors which burn in case of persisting short circuit.

                                         

                                        C108 has 13.5 V when the Power switch of the power board is on and the battery board switch is off. I got around 100mV on both ends of R7. R40/41 measures about 1ohm

                                         

                                         

                                      • #1938
                                        The Well Audio
                                        Participant

                                          So the regulator is working.
                                          Please measure the voltage on pin 7 of K4 versus ground (the one connected to R40) with battery off.
                                          You should measure 12-13VDC.
                                          If so, please measure the voltage on J5, always with battery off.
                                          You should measure the same 12-13VDC as above.

                                        • #1940
                                          multiblitz
                                          Participant

                                            Yes, I got both with 13.5V…

                                            but when I switch on battery, I have a voltage only of 1.2V on J5.

                                          • #1941
                                            The Well Audio
                                            Participant

                                              So the XO backup power supply works correctly.

                                              Please, measure the voltage on J4 with battery on.
                                              You should measure 16V5.
                                              J5 is in parallel with J4 when batteries are on, so you should measure the same 16V5 on J5.

                                              Otherwise the relay K4 does not work.

                                            • #1946
                                              multiblitz
                                              Participant

                                                battery on

                                                – j4 16.5 V

                                                -j5 1,2V

                                              • #1947
                                                The Well Audio
                                                Participant

                                                  So it looks like K4 is broken.
                                                  Can you hear the click when you switch the battery on and off?

                                                • #1948
                                                  multiblitz
                                                  Participant

                                                    Well, is there anything else we can check ? LIke power supply for the relais ? Or exchange the relais?

                                                  • #1949
                                                    The Well Audio
                                                    Participant

                                                      The power supply of the coil of K4 are pins 1 and 8 (close to J5).

                                                      It should toggle between V and 0 when switching the batteries on and off.

                                                    • #1961
                                                      multiblitz
                                                      Participant

                                                        There is no change when I switch battery part on: Its always 0V (measured between the two pins 1-8 you mentioned)

                                                        • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by multiblitz.
                                                        • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by multiblitz.
                                                      • #1970
                                                        multiblitz
                                                        Participant

                                                          When I measure against ground, I have 12V when powering battery on and 16.8V when powering battery off on both pins.

                                                        • #1972
                                                          The Well Audio
                                                          Participant

                                                            So I believe the relay K4 is broken.
                                                            Firstly you could replace R40 and R41 (Mouser part number is CRM2512-FX-1R00ELF).
                                                            And then if it doesn’t work you can replace K4 (Mouser part number is G2RL2-DC12).

                                                          • #1974
                                                            multiblitz
                                                            Participant

                                                              I exchanged all of that…but nope. that was not it.

                                                               

                                                              when I look at the pcb, i see around k4:

                                                              q6 and d9 which directly seem to have a function to provide the 12V for the k4 to work, no ?

                                                              not sure what the relais next to k4 does…

                                                               

                                                              but that has well q4, q5, d8

                                                               

                                                              I exchanged that relais as well just to be sure…

                                                               

                                                              So, i guess exchanging those transistors/regs/diodes is the next step if you can provide the part number.

                                                            • #1976
                                                              The Well Audio
                                                              Participant

                                                                D9 is the part US1K-13-F (Mouser part 621-US1K-F), Q6 is the part MMBT5401 (Mouser part 637-MMBT5401).
                                                                Q4, Q5 and D8 are the same parts as above.

                                                              • #1982
                                                                multiblitz
                                                                Participant

                                                                  I have exchanged them…nope. Still 1.2V when battery is on and 13.6V when battery is off on XO (J5). So, whats next upstream ?

                                                                • #1984
                                                                  The Well Audio
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    With battery on please measure the voltage between pins 4 and 5 of K4 (external pins close to D8 and to the coil pins of K3_1). You should read 16V5.

                                                                  • #1985
                                                                    multiblitz
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      yes, i got this 16.5V on those pins.

                                                                    • #1986
                                                                      The Well Audio
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Is W7 jumper installed?

                                                                      • #1988
                                                                        multiblitz
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Yes, it came installed with that one from you

                                                                        • #1989
                                                                          The Well Audio
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Looks like K4 does not switch since the coils of K4, K3_1 and K3_2 are driven in parallel.

                                                                            It seems that one of the tracks which drive the coil of K4 is broken.

                                                                            Please, with a DMM measure the voltage across the coil of the three relais (pins 1 and 8) with battery on and off.
                                                                            You should measure 0V and around 12V across all the coils.
                                                                            If you have no voltage change across the coil of K4 but you have voltage change across the coil of K3_1 and K3_2, please check the tracks to the coil of K4.
                                                                            They are on the boottom of the PCB, starting from the coil of K4, then D9, then D8_1, then D8_2 and so on.

                                                                          • #1997
                                                                            multiblitz
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              Well, when I switch battery on I hear a relais klick, not sure which one (and I have the daughterboard as well installed).

                                                                               

                                                                              When I measure the coils (VDC) and across the diodes (all the above you mentioned): I have always no Voltage across the coils, no matter if battery is on or off…which is weird as I hear at least one relais clicking…but maybe there is anotherone activated (maybe on the daughterboard) ?

                                                                            • #1999
                                                                              The Well Audio
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Please, remove the daughter board and measure again.
                                                                                Please, also check if you hear a click without the daughter board when swithing battery on and off.

                                                                                Have you checked the tracks to the coils of the relays?

                                                                                The other parts which could be broken are Q1 and Q2 (DMN6075S-7).

                                                                              • #2000
                                                                                multiblitz
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  I took the daughterboard out.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I hear the relay clicks, but the measurements are the same across those pins.

                                                                                  I measured now those pins against 0V (Output – of J5): with battery on I have 13.3V on each pin and with battery off I have 16.3V on each pin.

                                                                                  Q1/Q2 DMN6075S-7 is out of stock, how about: https://cdn-reichelt.de/documents/datenblatt/A200/MMBF170_ENG_TDS.pdf

                                                                                • #2002
                                                                                  The Well Audio
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    You can use the part DMN6075SQ-7 for Q1 and Q2.

                                                                                    Please, firstly look for broken tracks as described above.

                                                                                  • #2003
                                                                                    multiblitz
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      I checked for broken tracks between the three relays…and visually as well as electronically the three coils are in parallel and no broken tracks are visible. The three relays dont work, no measurement of voltage across the coils possible.

                                                                                      The click of the relays come from the normal battery relays in the moddle of the board. There i can measure 13.4V across the relays and I can measure that the relays switch changes, giving the battery voltage to the output of the board.

                                                                                      Are there any other potential parts I should order from Mouse as we have a 50 Euro net ordervalue each time…It is more economical if I order more or less the whole BOM of potential broken parts than having to order each little diode/mosfet individually…

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Thx for your continous support…

                                                                                    • #2005
                                                                                      The Well Audio
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        Can you please make a movie about the measurements?

                                                                                        If so, please send the movie by WeTransfer to info@thewellaudio.com

                                                                                        Thank you

                                                                                      • #2007
                                                                                        The Well Audio
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          Thank you for the movie.

                                                                                          It looks like one or more relays are not switching.

                                                                                          Please, make and send a new movie with the following voltage measurements:
                                                                                          – J5 connector (exactly the voltage between the pins of the connector) with battery on (D4 LED on) and with battery off (D4 LED off)
                                                                                          – J4 connector (exactly the voltage between the pins of the connector) with battery on (D4 LED on) and with battery off (D4 LED off)

                                                                                          You should measure:
                                                                                          – J4 16V5 with battery on and 0V with battery off
                                                                                          – J5 16V5 with battery on and 13V with battery off

                                                                                          If the voltage on J4 is correct as above but you have 13V on J5 with battery off and 1V2 with battery on means that K4 is not working while K3_1 and K3_2 are working.
                                                                                          Otherwise, if you get 0V on J4 with battery on and off, 13V on J5 with battery off and 1V2 with battery on means that Q2 is broken (K4, K3_1 and K3_2 are not working).

                                                                                          You could use the part IRLML 0060 from Reichelt to replace Q2.

                                                                                        • #2010
                                                                                          The Well Audio
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            Thank you for the new movie.
                                                                                            It looks like the output relays K4, K3_1 and K3_2 are not switching.

                                                                                            Probably Q2 has gone.

                                                                                            Please measure the voltage on the gate of Q2 versus ground (the connection on the bottom of the PCB which connects the gate of Q2 to R3 and R4).
                                                                                            With battery on you should measure around 5V and 0V with battery off.
                                                                                            If so it means that Q2 is broken and you can replace it.
                                                                                            Otherwise, if you measure always 0V, the micro has gone.

                                                                                          • #2009
                                                                                            multiblitz
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              Movie sent…you will see:

                                                                                              battery off:

                                                                                              J5 13.5V

                                                                                              J4 0V

                                                                                              battery on:

                                                                                              J5 1,2V

                                                                                              J4: 17,4V

                                                                                              batteries are fully charged…

                                                                                            • #2012
                                                                                              multiblitz
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                yes, i can comfirm 5V on q2 when battery is on and 0V when battery off.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Thanks for looking up q2 at reichelt…btw way the price for the relays etc is sometime half of mouser…a good source…

                                                                                              • #2021
                                                                                                multiblitz
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  SUCCESS !!!!!

                                                                                                  It was q2.

                                                                                                • #2034
                                                                                                  Hifoli
                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                    Hi, I’m just putting everything together and am a little confused, the connection on the fifo says 7VDC on j20, but TWRPS-LBS-P says 9VDC on the fifo  output, also I’m measuring more like 13VDC when turning everything on (nothing palying). Is this ok – everything seemes to work fine I’m just a little anxious I have a failure somewhere in the TWRPS-LBS-P. (Also display stays on when turning the battery rails off is this intended?)

                                                                                                    BR
                                                                                                    Oli

                                                                                                  • #2035
                                                                                                    The Well Audio
                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                      J5 is LC power supply so the voltage drops when loaded and it’s intended to power the FIFO Lite.
                                                                                                      Plese check U5 on the FIFO Lite, it shouldn’t be very hot.

                                                                                                      The display of the FIFO stays on when battery rails are off because it’s powered directly by the LBS-P and not by the batteries.

                                                                                                    • #2037
                                                                                                      Hifoli
                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                        thank’s for the fast help! I left it on for a while surveying the temperate and everything’s alright 🙂

                                                                                                        BR
                                                                                                        Oli

                                                                                                        PS.: I guess i’l build a flap to cover the display then, because it’s to bright for my taste to be always on ^^

                                                                                                      • #2115
                                                                                                        multiblitz
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          Ok, i started to use the battery supply now, for the clocks only at the moment.

                                                                                                          My impression:

                                                                                                          I get a more warm, soft image.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          On the one handside its nice to have more musical flow. More analog some would say.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          On  the other hand it sounds a bit veiled, less dynamic, less clear.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          So, not a 100 percent result, more like a typical trade off.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          I would like to improve this…any suggestions welcome. I believe some people used battery supplies and gave them a cap at the output nevertheless ? What would be the minimum to make sense ? If we talk several hundred uF, i could go MKP….

                                                                                                        • #2136
                                                                                                          multiblitz
                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                            OK, my dear audio friend Doede gave in DIYaudio.com the advise, to try to use an ultracap in parallel of the output of the batteries.

                                                                                                            So I ordered his suggestion: The Eaton https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/eaton-electronics-division/XTM-18R0626-R/10461229 a 18V bank.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            I understand that there is an initial loading-procedure, so I could for example load the super-cap to the 16.3V with an external CC/CV-PSU (mine can do up to 10A) before connecting it to your battery supply (in order not to overload it).

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Now, let think through what will happen when I connect it to your Battery-Supply.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            I guess there are two options how to do it:

                                                                                                            A. Connect the supercaps to J5: Than we have them as well in paralelel when your normal 13.5V standby-Reg kicks in…not sure if that is smart…if this will destroy the reg (?) either because the superreg has to high voltage at the output of the reg od drawing too muich current to charge itself again if the supercap has less than 13.5V…?

                                                                                                            B. Connect the super cap to J4: Depending on how the relays work (need your input here…): If J4 is only active when batteries are “on”, than the supercap would try to charge itself from the batteries which still have the clocks supppled with current as the super cap hopefully did not get discharged by the clocks from last usage (to be verified…)

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            I am thankful for your thoughts …

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                          • #2145
                                                                                                            The Well Audio
                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                              I would avoid option A because this could destroy the regulator.

                                                                                                              You could try option B but we cannot guarantee it will work without destroying anything since we have never tested such way. The battery system was not designed to be used with supercaps.

                                                                                                            • #2149
                                                                                                              multiblitz
                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                correction…i continued to use it in normal battery mode and now it behaves like normal…

                                                                                                              • #2148
                                                                                                                multiblitz
                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                  Ok, I tried B, but only with a 33000uF lytic (no supercaps) to start with…

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Well…when switching on the batteries, the relais klick and after a second they immediately klick back and let the supply go im charging mode…that happens as well when the cap is precharged.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Now, what I observe is even without the cap: Once charging is done, I can switch on battery and the relais stay, so battery supply works. When I switch it off, even after only one second, the charging immediately starts again.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  That was not the case before I started with this experiment…so I guess even with only a cap at the output aomething is broken, either a battery or one of these small three leg devices of each battery where the lanel is near impossible to read…

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